Ravenous Beauty: A Writer's Workshop

what does everyone think about story structure?

that is, linear vs non-linear, point of view, multiple narrators, unreliable narrator, multiple point of views [switch between third and first person narration], present vs past tense, and things of that nature. when is it appropriate to use, when inappropriate, when does it frustrate you, you know, that kind of schtuff.

I think it's a little hard to just ramble on about structure and all of those elements you mentioned. Structure is important, those elements you listed can work depending on the story and the writer... but yeah, I'm not sure what else to expound upon.

I tend to write non-linear things. My current novel is non-linear. The first chapter acts sort of like an anacrusis, where it flashes back to earlier events and eventually catches up with the "present." But there are also other chapters that happen in the present and flash back and tell events that happened earlier. It sounds needlessly complicated when explained, but it makes sense when read.

Starting off at a certain point then going back, like say Fight Club, works. It helps to describe something intriguing to get people interested in the story first off so you're not starting with a character getting out of bed or something.

i dont think that sounds complicated. i guess the purpose of this topic was more to just discuss structure than those things i mentioned specifically. structures become pretty important to me.

i guess mostly im just interested in trying some things with structure. i write mostly non-linear stories but im thinking about toying around with that. like extreme cutting around in the story. try to swirl the narrative around till the reader cant tell when things happened. start at a point and tell the story at three or more points cutting around. kind of like a collage or jigsawed movie.

also thinking about doing two stories in one that happen at different times but are both linear. or maybe move one of them backwards while the others going forwards.

right now im writing a story where the narrator is listening to a character speak in the present and then he retraces how he came to meet this character. also, the speaker, not the narrator, tells his story in one elongated sentence that has the narrators story cut into it. im also mixing voices heavily in this one. the speakers a bit metaphor heavy and the narrator is very concrete minimalist. then there are a few more characters.

i also have a story in mind with two narrators overlapping one another and spilling into each others stories. one relates the story in past tense and the other tells the story in present tense. im not yet sure why this will happen but it struck me as interesting.

i dont know, i really like the idea of multiple unreliable narrators. THE RULES OF ATTRACTION is a pretty good example of this. and i think it works really well there. make the reader try to weed out reality from differing accounts of the same event.

i also like the idea of writing stories in present tense. im not sure how often this is done, i cant think of any authors at the top of my head who use this, but i think its a cool way to tell a story. write the story as if its happening while its being read. the narrator literally takes us through the story as its happening.

im not sure if that would work for third person. im toying with a story told third person present tense also. i think third person allows for a much more complicated structure to be built because you dont need to rely on narrators voice. you can kind of eagle eye parts of the story and jump into a character and ride around for a while. also, cutting back and forth in time and switching styles becomes pretty easy.

and maybe im not making any of this clear, but just throw some thoughts out on structure. either things youd like to do, things you like to do, or what works and why.

I'm not a big fan of one elongated run-on sentence for huge intervals. I mean, um... I did it once for one chapter of my book. It's almost a page long, this one sentence, but I did it for a reason. Doing it just as a gimmick, I'm not a big fan of stuff like that. I like structure, I think it can definitely make things more interesting, or if used well can give a better appreciation for the story... just so long as the story itself would be worth telling linear. If you know what I mean. As long as it's not style over substance, I'm willing to read through warped structure.

I write in present tense. Almost always. Even flashbacks are relived in present tense (except one flashback). My next planned novel will likewise be present tense, a part of the narration seemingly spoken word, stream-of-consciousness stuff into a tape recorder by a man with both amnesia and dissociative identity disorder. That part would be first person, literally transcribing what was said to the recorder. Another part of the story would be detectives working on a kidnapping/homicide case in which the mental patient is the suspect, told in possibly third person... and the third piece of the same story being a poem that the patient is writing on the walls and floors of his cells.

That's just uh, the idea I have for it right now. The idea could change entirely by the time I start writing something down. But that's an idea of the sort of structure techniques I'm going to be working with.

i agree with the gimmick thing. story and characters always take precedence. plot im usually very unconcerned with though, so maybe story taking precedence isnt true for me. but, yeah, the story should always be more important than the style of the story.

im not using the sentence just to use it. it makes sense, hopefully, if you read it. it has a lot to do with that character specifically and the sentence is really going to be massive. possibly around 5000 words. the speakers a chaotic, psychotic, alcoholic, drug fiend, nightmarish, dadaistic, anarchistic clown who may or may not be real. and, yes, that sounds complicated to me as well.

too, i dont think ive written anything in the past tense until i started the past part of this clown story.

sounds like an interesting idea you got up there but im always wary of stories that involve mental disorders or anything related to psychiatry/psychology. especially things like DID which may or may not actually be a real disorder. but i think it can be an interesting device for storytelling. other than that i like the toying with the narration.

I'm wary too, but... I'm majoring in psychology and knew about a lot of it before I even started college. Going to be going a more realistic route than most others, I think.

To me, the unconventional thing to do would be to tell a story in chronological order, in third-person past tense. Excruciating in its traditionalism.

dreamscream wrote:also thinking about doing two stories in one that happen at different times but are both linear. or maybe move one of them backwards while the others going forwards.

Sounds like a cool idea, especially the first one, but with something like the second, there'd best be a damn good reason for doing it that way so it doesn't come off like a gimmick. If doing so heightens tension, that's a good enough reason. Look at Memento. That works, because that reverse-order technique actually more accurately allows the audience to identify with the character's condition, as the information is revealed to them in an empathetic way.

agree completely, flash. that story is far from even really being conceptualized by me yet. the first one seems more like what id do, too.

yeah, its always important to not come of as a gimmick. the only way i can really think of the second idea working is for science fiction which is probably something i'll never end up doing. but, it might work for a werewolf story ive been thinking of for a long time.

telling a story third person is hard for me to do. chronological is something im trying to do. i guess, to me, its just not as interesting. i dont know, i typically only write things i think id want to read. thats not to say that chronological is boring, im just not sure if id have fun writing it.

rainbow, the reason im wary is because i think its hard to pull those off realistically. describing disorders is something i typically dont like in fiction. especially if theres a psychiatric evaluation or meeting involved. those scenarios are not only done to death, in my opinion, but theyre hard to do well. when i use someone with a mental disorder i never say what it is or even try to. i just let them act the way i believe they would act in situations without ever outright telling. and thats another problem with it, i can only write from how i think they would act which is not an easy thing to do because people with those conditions are very erratic and unpredictable. especially someone with DID. the amnesia isnt necessary in my opinion because they dont remember being their other selves. amnesia is kind of built in. also, theres a lot of controversy revolving around that specific diagnostic. its in the DSMIV. but its not really definitive as far as the existence of the disorder. including how, if at all, this condition occurs. a lot of the reports involve inducing a hypnotic state which causes very unrealiable accounts of childhood events. im of the opinion that hypnosis should never be used in therapy because of the suggestibility it creates in people. theres a lot of studies on this. id read a few or a lot of those before id write something involving a possibly fictitious disorder.

I use psychology a lot in my current novel. One of the main characters is a psychologist. Nowhere in the entire book, though, is the main character ever explicitly diagnosed. The name of the disorder he suffers from in this (major depression) is never given. The psychologist doesn't talk in academic terms or drone about symptoms.... it's not like you see in movies at all. The first thing you learn about clinical psychology is the connection, the trust developed between the client and therapist, is key. And the therapist is usually given a semblance of power, like an authority figure, over the client, in order to open them up.

I know a lot about DID. I know therapists who treated people that had DID. Most academics I've spoken to believe it exists. The cause is long-term, continuous child abuse. It's the most imaginative and dramatic psychological disorder in existence, I think. Probably the most frightening or strange one to see someone afflicted with. Cases have been recorded with people so debilitated they have over 100 personalities in their heads assigned for every menial task imaginable, including walking, doing the dishes, driving the car, etc... it results from a child trying to escape their own consciousness during trauma (like rape or torturous abuse) over and over, so much that the memories and events are dissociated (split apart from the main personality), and those events gather and build and so much is stored away in that person's mind that, eventually, a new personality is born. Many of them taken on different roles, like protectorate, to help the person through it.

The use of psychology doesn't mean telling. It shouldn't. I don't use telling like hardly ever.

I'm pretty confident I got it covered. I trust myself.

im pretty aware of DID and its history also. im not saying its bad to use, just be careful with it. and it seems you have a pretty good grasp on it.


what do people think about page formatting? like the way HOUSE OF LEAVES or ONLY REVOLUTIONS uses it. how important is the way a page looks to you?

the way a page looks to me is very important and i want to move things around and fuck with the way the page looks but rarely do. i feel like its really hard to pull off and not feel like just a gimmick to someone else.

if i use it i use it sparingly and only to drive certain points. but ive also been thinking of including a part of a story in columns next to one another. one column for one character and the other for the other. its something im interested in doing but also something im afraid will just look and feel stupid.

I only care about the way the page looks in the sense that longer paragraphs should be tempered by shorter ones. And I prefer a string of the short ones.

Layout, though, is going to become more and more important as books compete with other outlets and they merge into more of a multi-media experience rather than just a novel. As someone who works in all those other mediums, I find that pretty exciting. It certainly drew me to HoL. Unless you have a strong relationship with your publisher, though, at the moment I can't imagine many writers being encouraged to get clever with their ideas about typography. That keep-dairy-away-from-pork kinda compartmentalization.

In my book, I tried to keep these visuals in mind, and it's peppered with several things to keep the page interesting now and then, but of course I didn't use any pretentious formatting in the ms (only in my personal first draft).